Are Hyperpreterists Going to Hell?

Filed Under (Uncategorized) by Roderick_E on 07-12-2008

Today I had a brief exchange with a young man (age 23) who claims to have grown up in a hyperpreterist home & yet did not consider himself a Christian until about June 2008.  But the point isn’t when he did or didn’t claim to be a Christian, the point is that if he is a hyperpreterist then technically he STILL isn’t a Christian.  When I told him this he took it to mean I think he is destined for hell, though I never said such a thing.  It is not my place to determine that.

How then is it possible for a person to not be a Christian & yet not be going to hell?  Well, hyperpreterism ISN’T historically Christian — hyperpreterism is something completely foreign to historic Christianity.  A person can have proclaimed Christ, repented of their sinful nature, truly be regenerated & yet for a time embracing something that is NOT Christian.  For example, this young fellow claims to be “Calvinistic”.  You may have heard of the so-called “five points of Calvinism” (T.U.L.I.P.).  The “P” stands for “perseverance of the saints” or akin to what some people may know as “eternal security/once saved always saved”.  Therefore, it is possible for someone to have professed Christ, fall away & embrace error to the point of not really even identifying with Christianity & YET still not be bound for hell.

So, perhaps the next question then would be, “If you don’t think they are automatically going to hell, then why make such a big fuss over people believing hyperpreterism or any error?”

The Bible doesn’t tell us to oppose error just because someone is going to hell, but error & evil should be called what it is no matter what. (Isaiah 5:20).  The hyperpreterist rationale is like saying it is ok to steal so long as the punishment doesn’t involve going to prison.

Unfortunately this young man ran back to his hyperpreterist buddies & made it sound like I was contradicting myself & Sam Frost was right there to help feed this young man more delusion. Sam Frost should know better since he claims to be Reformed but he throws all that out the window to further the hyperpreterist agenda.

Folks, this is the reason hyperpreterism is so dangerous.  It hooks young folks like this guy & then so-called teachers like Sam Frost just compound the error by feeding them false & distorted theology.

Sad News

Filed Under (Uncategorized) by dee dee on 07-12-2008

Friends, I am going to be offline for at least today and probably a few more, the TheologyWeb community just lost a 17 year-old member to cancer and we are mourning. We do not mourn like those who have no hope, for as Christ Jesus died and rose again, we believe that He also will raise those who sleep in Him.

A Lesson From Lyons

Filed Under (Uncategorized) by Paul on 04-12-2008

My experience has shown that Hyperpreterist’s play fast and loose with the historical record of Christianity. Hyperpreterism postulates, against the orthodox confessions of faith that the 2nd Advent occurred in the 1st Century and the bodily resurrection is a thing of the past. A fundamental tenet of Hyperpreterism is the redefinition of the what the term “resurrection of the dead” has meant within Christianity especially the primitive church.

N.T. Wright points out,

The resurrection of Jesus and the gift of the Spirit mean that we are called to bring real and effective signs of God’s renewed creation to birth even in the midst of the present age. Not to bring works and signs of renewal to birth within God’s creation is ultimately to collude, as Gnosticism always does, with the forces of sin and death themselves. Surprised by Hope, pg 209.

The denial of the future resurrection and restoration to that which was lost is collusion with the enemy.

However, let’s take a look at what happened to real Christians who looked to a future 2nd Advent and bodily resurrection. In 2nd Century of what is now France a group of Christians were unmercifully persecuted for believing the faith handed down to them by the Apostles. These folks went to their deaths for professing Christ, His future return and bodily resurrection.

Historian Ernest Renan in his work Origins of Christianity reports on a persecution of Christians at the hands of a pagan mob.

The Christians felt a deep grief at not being able to conceal in their graves the remains of the holy bodies. The excess of cruelty on the part of the Pagans appeared to them the proof of a malice which had reached its height, and the sign of an approaching judgment from God. “Come,” said they, “this is not enough,” and they added, as they remembered their Apocalypse, “Ah, let the sinner triumph more that the good may more improve.” They sought to take away the bodies during the night, trying the effect of money and entreaties upon the soldiers. All was useless; the authorities guarded those wretched remains with tenacity. The seventh day having come, the order was given to burn the infected mass, and to throw the ashes into the Rhone, which flowed hard by, so that there might remain no trace of them upon the earth. There had been in this way of acting more than a mental reservation. They imagined by the complete disappearance of the corpses to take away from the Christians the hope of resurrection. This hope appeared to the Pagans the origin of all the evil. “It is by the trust they have in the resurrection,” they said, “that they introduce among us this new strange worship, that they contemn the most terrible punishments, that they walk to death with eagerness and even with joy. Let us see then if they will rise again, and if their God is able to take them out of our hands.”

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/renan/marcus.xxiii.html?highlight=vienna,lyons#highlight

What I’ve emboldened isn’t far from some of the comments I’ve seen bandied about by Hyperpreterist’s. I wonder what these 2nd Century Christian martyrs would have thought about the Hyperepreterist position that the resurrection and 2nd Advent had occurred in 70AD. It sure is odd that these days so called Christians deny what others in the past went to their graves professing instead claiming that the 2nd Advent and bodily resurrection are a thing of the past. I think the 2nd Century Christians who went to their graves as a result of the pagan belief this was a false religion, the belief in a future bodily resurrection, sure would have liked to understand the Bible the way some today would have us believe. Perhaps they could have been spared being beaten, mauled by wild animals and ultimately killed for proclaiming this fundamental Christian principle. What say you?

Sam Frost’s Frustrated Flood Theory

Filed Under (humour) by Roderick_E on 02-12-2008

If you are following the wildly erroneous & speculation filled movement that is hyperpreterism, you will have noticed over the last few years that it has entered a new area of theological distortion.  Right before I left hyperpreterism, I warned the so-called “conservatives” in the movement that in the coming years the movement would be dominated by a new Creation/Flood theory proffered by two guys named Tim Martin & Jeff Vaughn.  They call their theory, “Covenantal Creationism” & is basically a view that sees the biblical creation account as merely localized/tribalized/covenantalized — that is, to them Genesis isn’t really about the creation of the physical universe, the physical planet, the physical humans, physical plants & animals but really only about a symbolic or contractual creation.  They even claim Adam was not the first created human but only the first human created into a “covenant” with God. (see my refutation of “Coventantal Creationism”)

Anyhow, it is happening — hyperpreterism is in the process of hyperpreterizing the Creation/Flood account (so much for hyperpreterism only affecting eschatology –  don’t let them fool you, it AFFECTS EVERYTHING folks)

Hyperpreterist leader, Sam Frost was originally opposed to “Covenantal Creationism” yet something seemed to change after his fellow hyperpreterists issued this stern warning:

Covenant Creation is spreading through the rank and files of the Preterist community. You are not necessarily privy to other forums where this is being discussed and understood. In a few years you and your site will become embraced only by the Ed Stevens and Kurt Simmons follower types of Preterism and maybe some reformed folks. The Covenant Creation understanding will move on into the mainstream leaving you guys in the dustbin of history as just another remnant of curiosity in about 5 or 10 years. Fifty years from now the questions being asked is “what happened to that Sam Frost guy who started out so good?” Will history simply say that he got “left behind”? (message to Sam Frost from a fellow hyperpreterist)

Shortly after that, Frost finally got around to writing a supposed refutation of Covenant Creationism, the only problem being, after the publishing of the stereotypically verbose Frostian offering Frost’s fellow hyperpreterists DIDN’T see it as a refutation of Covenant Creationism but more as a hybrid or even capitulation to Covenant Creationism.

After reading Frost’s supposed “refutation”, one hyperpreterist even comments:

Sam seems to have taken a “Partial Covenant Creation” position… Of course, the correct position is probably a “synthesis” of Tim and Sam. (comment by hyperpreterist about Frost’s view)

So you see, for whatever hyperpreterist claims I am just “smearing” Frost by saying his “refutation” was more of a pandering to the middle ground & not be “left behind” as his fellow hyperpreterists said he would — let them read comments by their own hyperpreterists.

But it doesn’t end there.  Recently the Covenant Creationism guys (Martin & Vaughn) responded to Frost’s supposed “refutation” & STILL, Frost’s fellow hyperpreterists think he was proposing some hybrid form.  Here is a  quote:

I thought you clearly presented a local flood view too. And I thought Tim did a good job of recapping exactly what you stated in your presentation. ok, now I really need some clarification on your part concerning the flood and your position. (hyperpreterist stating he thinks Frost is teaching a type of local flood)

Frost does clearly tell the hyperpreterist he doesn’t mean to teach a local flood yet then why can’t the supposed “presumed scholar” of the hyperpreterist movement make propositions that no one would mistake?  Perhaps it is either because he is trying to do a balancing (pandering) act or he really isn’t that great of a communicator as he is touted.  Either way, the little dance between the creation/flood factions of hyperpreterism is interesting AND I still think the Frostians will come out on the short end.  The Martin/Vaughn view is more consistent with the over all premises of hyperpreterism & will appeal to more of the “church of Christ” denominational background hyperpreterists than the Frostian elites holed up in their corner of the ningosphere.

But no doubt, Frost has the warning of his fellow hyperpreterist ringing in his head:

The Covenant Creation understanding will move on into the mainstream leaving you guys in the dustbin of history as just another remnant of curiosity in about 5 or 10 years. Fifty years from now the questions being asked is “what happened to that Sam Frost guy who started out so good?” Will history simply say that he got “left behind”? (message to Sam Frost from a fellow hyperpreterist)

Frost will never let that happen, he loves his position as the “presumed scholar” & will do whatever it takes to hold on to it…even pander or capitulate.

The Sermon on the Mount and Eschatology

Filed Under (Uncategorized) by Apologianick on 30-11-2008

I’ve been doing at my own blog lately a look at the Sermon on the Mount and this involves often reading a chapter of it in the morning and in the evening. As I’ve read chapter 7 lately, I’ve noticed something that I think could be a pointer to eschatology. This is just speculation at this point, but I consider it an idea worth throwing out and to see what happens.

Let’s get some background first. Matthew is a Jew writing to Jews incredibly familiar with the OT. He uses much imagery that indicates that Jesus is going to succeed where Israel has not. He begins with the unique origin of Jesus. Jesus is truly the presence of “God with us” where Israel was not. Israel was to represent God to the world and did not succeed. Jesus did and being fully deity, quite literally is “God with us.”

Jesus goes to Egypt as a child to escape death just as Israel went later on to escape death in the infancy of its existence as a nation. Jesus is called out of Egypt just as Israel was which is why Matthew uses a pesher parallel with Hosea 11:1. “Out of Egypt, I called my Son.”

Jesus is baptized just as the Israelites were baptized by passing through the sea as Paul says in 1 Cor. 10. Then, he is tempted in the wilderness. Where Israel often gave in to temptation, Jesus succeeds and overcomes it every time. Now, let’s move on to chapter 5.

Jesus ascends a mountain and begins giving the sermon. The statement begins with “opening his mouth.” Okay. Sounds kind of obvious, except that Jesus is being depicted as the one who is giving the covenant from on high and his word is to be compared to the Word of the Lord in the OT. In fact, consider what he says:

“You have heard it said, but I say unto you.”

Jesus is claiming the right to have divine commentary on the Law. In his book, “Reasonable Faith” William Lane Craig quotes a Jewish writer who says the Jew could make the obvious conclusion from the way Jesus talked. “Who do you think you are? God?” 

We as Christians do believe that that in fact is the case and thus, he is on Sinai giving a covenant again to Israel to accept or reject. This covenant involves the way what I call, “kingdom people” are to live. It is not the purpose of my writing this time to go into the way the sermon is to be lived. I think we can all agree it points to holy and righteous living though to show how Christians are to be different and anyone with further interest can go back to my own blog to see.

I’d like to look at the last part though. Jesus talks about two houses. The one who builds his house on his teachings will have a house that will stand. The one who does not though will see his house fall and how great will be that fall! Considering how Jesus is going against the teachings of the Pharisees in the Sermon, he is in effect saying, “You cannot stay with these teachings any more to have a house that will stand.”

The deal is being made again to Israel. The covenant is being offered. Accept or reject? Now I believe Israel could have chosen to accept the covenant, but I also believe that God knew what their free choice would be and knew that they would do no such thing. He gave the consequences though. The house would fall or it would stand.

We know that Israel rejected the covenant. Could we not then say that the result was that their house would fall? That is exactly what happened and it’s interesting how Jesus not only says “the house will fall” but “How great will that fall be!” If any place could be considered the house of Israel, it would be the temple and if my view is correct, then the temple falling could be something that would be seen as rejecting the teaching of the Sermon on the Mount, the covenant being offered, just as the destruction of the temple in 586 B.C. was because Israel rejected the first covenant.

But what about the contrary? Do we have any positive statements about building a house?

YES!

In 2 Samuel 7, we have God speaking to David through Nathan:

” ‘The LORD declares to you that the LORD himself will establish a house for you: 12 When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. 15 But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom will endure

From 1 Cor. 3:

9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

Ephesians 2:

9Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

1 Peter 2:

5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

And why will this house succeed where the others wouldn’t? It is built on the true covenant of God revealed in Christ and the acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Messiah. All who come and accept that as part of the house can be sure that such a house will not fall.

Again, what I have said will no doubt need to be refined further, but I offer it out there for consideration.

Notes from “Christ’s Second Coming: Will it be Premillennial?” Part 26

Filed Under (book excerpts) by dee dee on 30-11-2008

Introduction: I am reading “Christ’s Second Coming: Will it be Premillennial?” by David Brown with foreword by Kenneth Gentry. This is an older work which takes a more historicist view and is described by Dr. Gentry as one of the exemplary refutations of dispensationalism in its time. As I like to do, I am going to post some excerpts here that I find useful at the moment.

I find myself here reproducing an entire chapter of awesomeness. Brown totally decimates a very common premill argument. Bravo.

Chapter VI. (pages 367 through 373)

The Way of Salvation No Less Narrow During the Millennium Than Now.

Very loose is the language indulged in upon this point,&mdashlanguage which, though repudiated by some, is nevertheless the prevailing strain in the contrasts which are drawn between the present and the expected millennial dispensation.

“Concerning the number of true believers under this dispensation,” say Dr. M’Neile, “we read, ‘Many are called, but few are chosen. Enter ye in at the strait gait, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat; because strait is the gate and narrow is way which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in they name; and then will I profess unto them, I never knew you, depart from me, ye that work iniquity.’ Concering the character of true believers, we read, ‘Love not the world, neither the things of the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. The friendship of the world is enmity with God; whosoever, therefore, will be a friend of the world, is the enemy of God. Therefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord.’ These passages of Scripture avowedly belong to this dispensation. They have applied in every age, and do still apply to the true disciples of the Lord Jesus: But if the world become Christian, the world will no longer persecute Christians. If all the families of the earth be blessed with eternal life, the way of life will be no longer narrow. If the world become Christian, then Christians cannot separate from the world.. It is obvious, that in the passage from our present state to a state of universal holiness, these characteristic saying of the New Testament must cease to have any application, and become obsolete, not to say false.”

The least consideration,” says Mr. Maitland, in the note already quoted, “will serve to show that the New Testament supposed a suffering< ./em> kingdom, and that its encouragements, exhortations, warnings, were addressed to a people conflicting with the world, the flesh, and the devil. The Master, as he delivered it, said, ‘I am come to send fire on earth, not peace, but a sword;’ and this supposition is the whole revelation founded. Now, if we turn to the promises of God concerning the state of the world, after his ancient people shall have been brought in and made the light of the nations (as given in Isa. xi., xxv., lx., and elsewhere), and carry the exhortation and warnings of our dispensation to a people conditioned as they shall be, we shall at once see how ill adapted they would be to their times and circumstances. Christ says to his Gospel-church in every line, if not in word yet in spirit, ’Watch and pray lest ye enter into temptation: Behold I come as a thief—a snare: be ye therefore like servants which wait for their Lord.’ Take this thought with you to the sixtieth of Isaiah, and mark the incongruity. If such precepts as these are still needed, the condition there described could not exist. Holy fear and jealousy, from the surrounding dangers, would effectually check the tide which we see flowing there. Their condition is evidently one not militant but triumphant.”

When,” says Mr. Wood,, “the nations say, ‘Come and let us go up to the house of the Lord,’ shall it be true, then, that ‘strait is the gate and narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it?”

Once more,

“Surely,” says Mr. Brooks, “the kingdom will be already come, when all the kingdoms of this world shall have become the kindom of our Lord and and of his Christ. With what propriety, then, could men any longer be exhorted to ’seek’ and to ‘lay up treasure,’ and ‘hope for’ that which they will already be in possession of!”

The confusion of thought which all thse passages manifest, is such as can only be accounted for by the difficulty of defining a state which is made up of the most ikncongruous elements. Let us try to bring order out of it.

1. When the world ceases to persecute Christians, it will only be that on a great scale, which on a small one has seen hundreds of times in the past history of the Chrch, and, on a scale smaller still, occurs in the domestic circle every day. “The had the churches rest,” says the historian of the Acts, after Saul of Tarsus had been transformed out of a bloody persecutor into a glowing Christian, and “walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multipled.” (Acts ix. 31.) such rest, and such blessed consequences of it, have been more or less experienced in the Church from age to age since that time. And what will the millennium be, in one blessed feature of it, but this same rest,and these same consequences of it, over the whole earth? But what in this case, it will be said, becomes of such passages as these, “In the world ye shall have tribulation;” “I am not come to send peace on earth,but a sword;” “The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father”? Why, just what becomes of them when “one of a fami8ly,” after having been the object of incessant and virulent opposition from an ungodly housuehold, is blessed to the faining of every one of them—when “those who spake against him as an evil-doer, do,by his good works which they behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.” Of course the father is not now “divided against the son.” they are “all of one mind; they live in peace, and the God of love and peace is with them.” There is manifestly no difference at all between this case and that which we expect during the millennium over the whole earth. The extent is nothing. The principle is the only thikng of consequence, and who does not see that that is the same in both cases? Yet they build out of this an argument for a new dispensation! As well might one say, that the change which came over the Church when Constantine extended to it the protection of the empire, was a new dispensation. (Comapre Isa. xi. 9; ii. 3, 4; xxxii. 15﹣18.)

2. The argument for an entirely new state of things during the millennium, from the words, “Strait is the gate and narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it,” while it resembles the former one in shallowness, grates more upon the ear, and is more vicious in its tendency. It proceeds on a misapprehension of the real point of our Lord’s statement, and unduly magnifies what is the least important part of it. What makes “the narrow way” to narrow, is not that “few find it,” but it is because of it narrowness that it is found by few. It is not because “many there be that go in thereat,” that the way they take is called “the broad way,” but it is because of its breadth that so many frequent it. The one way means just the course which pleases the flesh, is congenial to the carnal taste of eery natural man, and consists in following the bent of corrupt nature; therefore it is called broad—easily trodden, as its “gate” is said to be wide—easily got in at. The other way means just the opposite of this—resistence to all the desires of the natural man, the mortification of the flesh, obedience to the promptings of the opposite principle—the new, spiritual, heaven-born natrue. If this be correct, it follows, not only that men during the millennium, just as much as now, willo naturally prefer the “broad” to the “narrow” ay, if they be born in sin as we are, but that, left to themselves, every one in all time will walk in the former, and none at all in the latter; that the wonder is, not that “few,” but that any find it, and that these few fine it purely in virtue of a supernatural principle, emancipating them from the “earthly, sensual, devilish” desires to which, in common with all other men, they are naturally in bondage. Now, as this is the secret of any man’s finding the narrow way, so is it the secret of every man’s finding it who is ever conducted to “life” upon it. What, then, is the difference between the present and the millennial state, in respect of this way? Just the difference between grace plucking more brands out of the fire than now—between a less and a greater number of converted and holy persons:—that is all.

Will it be said, The way will no longer be narrow, when, instead of few, many find it? That, as I have said, is to make its narrowness to arise from its unfrequentness. And by so saying, you do something far worse than make the cause the effect, and the effect the cause; you put the real narrowness of the one way and breadth of the other out of sigh altogether, and represent the millennial state as on in which men will not find the way of life to be what it is to us—a state in in which they will not have to struggle against the corrupt tendencies of the natural man—a state in which the corruption of nature either will not exist at all, o r will not have those characteristics which make it what it is, and which have been always the same since the fall. If this is not what you mean, your argument is inept, and your language fitted only to deceive.

But surely it will not then be said, “Few there be that find it,” and if not, will not this statement be then inapplicable? The answer, if answer the question needs or merits, has been furnished already. “The father is” no longer “divided against the son,” when the father joins the son in the bonds of the gospel. When the sword of persecution is sheathed in any land, the Saviour’s words, “I am not come to send peace on earth, but a sword,” before realized there, cease of course to be descriptive of the actual state of things in that land. In these and similar statements of Scripture, it is the principle of eternal hostirily between him that is born after the flesh and him that is born after the Spirit which is to be seized upon. In this originates all the actual opposition to the cause of Christ and the members of his body which is displayed. It varies, of course, in the forms which it takes, in the places where it occurs, and in the extent to which it is permitted to go: sometimes the worse triumphs over the better, and puts it down; at other times it is the reverse; and the time is coming when those that are born after the flesh shall be the tail and not the head, all the world over. But who would ever spreak of such statements as the above being superseded, either now—wherever true religion triumphs, in families, cities, or countries—or hereafter over the whole earth? So with the “few” that now find the narrow way, compared with what will be witnessed during the millennium. As the way will be the same then—and narrow then in the same sense and for precisley the same reasons as now—so it will be nothing else than grace triumphing then over nature in more person, and to a greater extent, than now.

3. “If the world, says Dr. M’Neile, “become Christian, then Christians cannot separate from the world.” Is it possible that such a fallacy shoudl stumble any one acquainted with Scripture language? What definition of “the world” from which Christians are commanded to separate, is given in the very passage which he quotes? “Love not the world,” says the beloved disciple, “neither the things that are in the world. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eye, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” Will none of these exist during the millennium, or require to be separated from? Take riches—one of “the things (now) in the world,” and the love of which must be in this passage forbidden, seeing it is said to be “the root of all evil.” Will this not be “in the world” during the millennium? or will money be anything else than than what it is now, or will the “love of money” be more lawful? “The lust of the flesh”—will that be extinct during the millennium, or may it be then cherished? “The lust of the eye”—will that also be gone? And “The pride of life?” Or will they be any thing else then than now? The question, it will be observed, is not, Will men then rise superior to those things? but, Will they have them to resist? Dr. M’Neile’s argument, if good for any thing, is this, that men during the millennium will not need to be warned against the love of the world—not becuase they will have so much of the Spirit that hte world will make no impression upon them, though even that were no reason why they should never be warned—but because there will then be no world to love, no lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, and pride of life, to require warnings against. And when we have got this length we are still not far enough; for unless it will then be lawful to “love” the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever, since the “creature” will exist during the millennium, and be quite as attractive, I should suppose, as ever it has been since the fall, there will be the very same reason then as now for the apostle’s counsel, “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world.”

The reader will now know what to gether from Mr. Brooks’ question, “With what propriety could men any longer be exhorted to ’seek’ and to ‘lay up treasure,’ and to ‘hope for’ that which they will be in possession of?” As this is spoken of the millennial condition of mortal men, it either means that they will, in the state of mortality, be in possession of heaven, and heaven’s treasures, so as no longer to need hoping for them, as poor mortal men now have, who, with all “the frist-fruits of the Spirit” they enjoy, are dorced to “groan within themselves, waiting” for a very different state;—or else it has no meaning. I am inclined to think, that neither solution is perfectly correct. All the meaning which the statement has, is to the effect just expressed; but as I feel persuaded the author does not and cannot go that length, the rest must be set down to the nature of the expectation actually entertained, which in vain will any one attempt intelligibly to express.

In fine, the millennial state, according to the foregoing representations of it, will not be our Christianity at all. It has none of the characteristics of a state of grace; or, if this should be protested against as an unfair inference from their statements, let them give up contrasting the present with what they call the millennial dispensation. As well, I preat, may the term the change from teh persecuted to the peaceful state of the Church before and after Constantine, a change of dispensation; as well may they call the change from the Bloody Mary to Elizabeth of England, and similar changes in Scotland, and all the other kingdoms of Protestant Christendom, new dispensations. True, the change will be vastly more extensive, permanent, and glorious, tha tis to characterize the millennial period. But will there be one element in it that has not already been realized, and is not from time to time witnessed, on a smaller scale? Not one. when “the sovereignty of the world has become our Lord’s and his Christ’s” (Rev. xi. 15); when the kingdom and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom, under the whole heaven, is given to the people of the sains of the Most High; when Christ’s dominion is from sea to sea, and from the river to the ends of the earth; when men are blessed in him, and all nations call him blessed; when they have beaten their swords into plough-shares, and their spears into pruning-hooks—nation not lifting up sword agaiknst nation, and none learning war any more:—then, of course, all the earth will be at rest and be still, save in the unwearied activities of welld oing. But even then, as the flesh will lust against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, so salvation in every case will then be as much a triumph of grace over nature as now.

New Podcast Episode out

Filed Under (Uncategorized) by dee dee on 29-11-2008

Ep.19- Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner?

Brief summary: Ep. 19 is the twelfth of an ongoing verse by verse study of the Olivet Discourse as recorded in Matthew 24 and is intended to be an audio companion to the written commentary It’s Not the End of the World located at http://www.preteristsite.com/plain/warrenend.html. The topic in this episode is Matthew 24:23–26:

Matthew 24:23-26: Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.

And I am going to add. . .

Matthew 24:27-28: For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

What Martin Luther & the Reformers Think of the Hypers

Filed Under (Uncategorized) by Roderick_E on 28-11-2008

Before a discussion or proposition can progress, it is important that we first define our terms.  For the sake of this essay the word HYPER is used to mean anything that goes beyond the original intent & scope  In the theological sense, hyper is used as a prefix to many otherwise legitimate theological perspectives.  There are some groups claiming to be within historic Christianity that clearly have gone beyond the original intent & scope of Jesus,  beyond His hand-picked apostles, & beyond 2000 years of Christian interpretation.   Whether these hyper groups acknowledge they have gone beyond or not, it is still accurate to label them as hyper.

We often hear hypers trying to use Martin Luther & the other Reformers as if they would support some hyperism.  You will see hypers using Luther’s quotes against Papalism & trying to compare it to hyper’s stance to the Church & 2000 years worth of historic Christianity.  Hypers fancy themselves as either the new or a continuance of the Reformers & the Reformation.  But just a casual look beyond the catch phrases will show that neither Luther nor the Reformers would have supported the hypers of our day any more than they supported the hypers of their day.

In the early days of the Reformation, as Luther & other Reformers were making their case against Papalism with Scripture AND historic Christianity, there was a third group we often do not hear about today.  This group was called the radical reformers.  Luther called them the “enthusiasts” or the “fanatics” (reference).  This group of 16th century hypers, like modern hypers advocated throwing off all of historic Christianity & starting over — often claiming they want to rebuild Christianity on the Bible alone (as if it has not been so for 2000 years).  The hypers at first supported Luther & the Reformers but then went BEYOND the original intent & scope of the Reformers & instead held much disdain for Luther & the Reformers, much the same way modern hypers disdain historic Christianity & the so-called institutional Church.

As the hypers of Luther’s day became increasingly disconnected from anything that resembled Christianity, the hypers eventually formed into bands of theological & sociological thugs.  They raided castles, churches & monasteries destroying everything in their path.  They were out to destroy the very foundations of 2000 years of Christianity & replace it with a revisioned form.  The “thugs” of today are doing the same but on an ideological level rather than a geographical.

Luther & the other Reformers didn’t just wink at what these hypers were doing but instead, Luther urged the political authorities to take action against them.  This is evidenced most in a tract Luther wrote called: Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants.

The peasants have taken upon themselves the burden of three terrible sins against God and man; by this they have merited death in body and soul… they have sworn to be true and faithful, submissive and obedient, to their rulers… now deliberately and violently breaking this oath… they are starting a rebellion, and are violently robbing and plundering monasteries and castles which are not theirs… they have doubly deserved death in body and soul as highwaymen and murderers… they cloak this terrible and horrible sin with the gospel… thus they become the worst blasphemers of God and slanderers of his holy name” (Against the Rioting PeasantsMartin Luther, 1525)

A truer picture of Luther & the Reformers will see that they were fighting on one hand against the Papists with their Creed without Scripture & on the other hand against the Enthusiasts/Hypers with their Scripture without Creed.   And here we must once again define our terms — Creed is merely the English form of the Latin word “credo” which literally means “belief” or “I believe”.  The issue with the Papists is that they often would put forward beliefs without Scripture to back it up whereas the Enthusiasts/Hypers would put forth Scriptures disconnected from the beliefs of 2000 years of Christianity (or 1500+ years at the time of the Reformation).  Both approaches were as incorrect yesterday as they are today & tomorrow.

Perhaps a quote that summarizes Luther’s perspective on approaching Scripture is this one:

You should meditate, that is, not in the heart alone, but also externally. You should work on it and ply the oral speech and the lettered words in the book, read them and reread them again and again, noting carefully and reflecting upon what the Holy Spirit means by these words. And take care that you do not tire of it or think it enough if you have read, heard, said it once or twice, and now profoundly understand it all; for in that manner a person will never become much of a theologian. (Sammtliche SchriftenMartin Luther)

That quote might be compared to another by Luther wherein he shows that it is possible for someone to approach the Bible “rationally”, “logically”, & even with “consistency” & STILL come out with error:

The first concern of a theologian should be to be well acquainted with the text of Scripture, a bonus textualis, as they call it.  He should adhere to this primary principle: in sacred matters there is no arguing or philosophizing; for if one were to operate with the rational and probable arguments in this area, it would be possible for me to twist all the articles of faith as easily as Arius [an infamous anti-Trinitarian], the Sacramentarians, and the Anabaptists did.  But in theology we must only hear and believe and be convinced in our heart that God is truthful, however absurd that which God says in His Word may appear to be to reason. (Auslegung des 45Martin Luther)

CONCLUSION

This brings us to the conclusion of this essay.  The hypers, be they of Luther’s time or present or even future will claim as did Arius that they are just asking “logical” questions but then they will move from there to open advocacy of error to eventually displaying aggressive repudiation of the historic Christianity.  They will claim (as they always have) that there has been some sort of conspiracy since the very founding of Christianity & not until they [the hypers] have come & “corrected” the confusion has anything been true.  And with this giant leap of arrogance against all of Christianity, we are supposed to simply yield.  No sirs, ma’ams we shall not yield to their errors no matter how “logical” & with “rational & probable” philosophizing arguments they may use.  Their hyper heresy is heresy not simply because we don’t like it, nor because the majority is against it, but because all of Christianity has been against it throughout all time & because their hyper heresies are NOT “carefully reflecting upon what the Holy Spirit means” & because their hyper heresies “twist all the articles of faith” & try to replace them with something new & foreign to historic Christianity.

So, next time you see a hyper of any sort trying to use Luther & the Reformers to bolster their view, be they such as the restorationists or the children of the restorationist such as the hyperpreterists, or the cultists such as Mormons & JWs — remind them what Luther & the Reformers REALLY thought about the hypers.

A Primer on Hyperpreterism (Full Preterism)

Filed Under (Uncategorized) by Roderick_E on 23-11-2008

This primer or introduction has been written with intent to be used by pastors & “congregants” to familiarize themselves with the basics of hyperpreterism.  Please feel free to copy & share this with anyone & everyone.  Perhaps even incorporate it into a study on heresies.  Maybe even send it to your local seminaries & ask them to interact on it.  Hyperpreterism, though a small & relegated movement, is a very vocal & pernicious movement.  The better prepared Christians are when it pops up, the less damage it will do to individuals & entire congregations/institutions.

First, for those who do not know what hyperpreterism is let me summarize the 3 main positions held by hyperpreterists. (pret sounds like bet).
3 MAIN BELIEFS OF HYPERPRETERISM

1. Jesus came back once & for all in the year AD70
2. The resurrection of the believers happened in the year AD70.
3. The judgment of the wicked & righteous happened in the year AD70.

These 3 points are driven by an over arching premise which is that Christian interpretation & indeed basic Christian understanding has been terribly in error for over 2000 years. Some hyperpreterists even claim there has been a 2000 year conspiracy to cover up the 3 beliefs above.

Now, why is it called HYPER-preterism? The word “hyper” in the theological sense means to go beyond the original intent to scope — so HYPER-preterism is a belief that goes beyond an original version that was simply called preterism. Traditional/Historic preteristic beliefs do see some significance in the AD70 events (See Matthew 24:1-3, Mark 13:1-3, Luke 21:5-7,20) BUT classic preterism did NOT advocate the 3 beliefs mentioned above. Thus, hyperpreterism is considered HYPER just as much as HYPER-Calvinism goes beyond the original intent & scope of traditional/historic Calvinism.

Hyperpreterism is also Heterodox…a heresy. It is NOT a heresy just because we don’t like it, nor is it a heresy because it is “new”, nor is it a heresy because the majority oppose it. Hyperpreterism is a heresy because it is unlike anything ever taught in the history of Christianity…from the very founding to now. Hyperpreterism is as much outside of historic Christianity as is Mormonism & JWs. Hyperpreterists often call their system: Full Preterism, Covenant Eschatology, Consistent Preterism, Fulfilled Eschatology, or a new name bandied about in attempt to make it sound more legitimate, Biblical Preterism.

WHERE DID HYPERPRETERISM COME FROM?

The present day versions of hyperpreterism all originated in the 1970s with a man named Max King. King was a “church of Christ” minister who wrote several hyperpreterist books in the 1970-1980s. Hyperpreterism before that was mainly manifested among Universalists (people who believed no one would ultimately be condemned — “everyone is saved”). Perhaps the most infamous group of pre-1970 hyperpreterists was a group in upstate New York in the late 1800s. This group was called the “Oneida Community” (search wikipedia.org). This group formed a commune & practiced their hyperpreterism to the extent of no longer having individual marriages but instead everyone having sexual relations with everyone else — they thought this would be a “logical” conclusion if the resurrection is already passed & people are no longer given in marriage. (Mt 22:30)

Hyperpreterism died out & as I said was revived again in the 1970s. Hyperpreterism is experiencing a resurgence & is beginning to show itself among the churches. Hyperpreterists typically don’t (or can’t) maintain their own congregations so instead, “lone ranger” hyperpreterists either try to influence existing congregations or they drop out of attending church & instead try to influence Christians where ever they can.

Hyperpreterism is mainly an online phenomenon. Some of the hyperpreterists came through so-called “Reformed” teachers such as Gary DeMar who although he claims he is not a hyperpreterist himself, he refuses to call it a heresy & has spoken at hyperpreterist conferences & maintains a friendly presence on hyperpreterist websites.

HOW TO COMBAT HYPERPRETERISM

Hyperpreterism by design is an arrogant & egotistical system — after all it claims 2000 years worth of Christian interpretation has been MAJORLY wrong, so trying to interact with a hyperpreterist one on one will be a frustrating & futile endeavor. Hyperpreterism redefines theological terms & definitions so although a Christian may think they are having a fruitful, scriptural discussion with a hyperpreterist, you must recognize that hyperpreterism like Mormonism & JWs may use Christian sounding terms & even appeal to the Bible — but just like those other cults — hyperpreterism is anything but Christian.

To combat hyperpreterism you MUST keep them on the main premise — that they are trying to tell you that God could not or would not maintain within His Church a basic & correct understanding of the endtimes. Don’t let hyperpreterists leave this premise no matter how much they claim to want to talk about “scripture” or have an “exegetical” conversation. Premises matter & the hyperpreterist premise is faulty to the core.

HYPERPRETERIST TACTICS

Hyperpreterists will try several tactics to break down the defenses (armor) of a Christian. A couple things they will do are:

1. Claim they are only using “Sola Scriptura/Bible alone” methods
2. Claim Hyperpreterism always existed in “seed” form.
3. Claim there has never been a Church council on eschatology.
4. Claim you are unloving or mean to not accept them.
5. Attempt to get legitimate teachers/preachers to validate them.

The first point is perhaps the one that hooked me on hyperpreterism for a time (yes I am a former hyperpreterist). Hyperpreterism often claims it is merely reading/interpreting the Bible as it is written. Hyperpreterists will also pit their interpretation against 2000 years of Christian interpretation by claiming they don’t follow the “Creeds” (this comes from its ‘church of Christ’ foundation). The word Creed, in Latin simply means “belief”. So, unless hyperpreterists are trying to claim they don’t believe anything, they too have a “creed” — its just that the hyperpreterist “creed” goes against everything that was ever considered Christian. Another tactic hyperpreterists try to employ under point #1 is to compare themselves with the Reformation & the Reformers like Martin Luther. The problem is, hyperpreterism would have been rejected by the Reformers as well. Hyperpreterists are more like the “radical reformation” (look up on wikipedia.org) which wanted to chuck everything & start over. The Reformers & especially Martin Luther, rejected the radicals as heretics.

Lastly on this point, hyperpreterists will often try to claim that Luther was teaching something never before taught in the Church — this is categorically untrue. Luther was merely re-espousing long advocated beliefs that are found more than just in “seed” form both in the Bible & in historic Christian interpretation. (see Augustinianism for example).

Point #2 in hyperpreterists tactics is one I’ve seen used by so-called “conservative hyperpreterists”. They want to pretend there are traces of hyperpreterism all throughout Christian history. What they do is find a quote by some theologian that sounds like preterism or hyperpreterism & then tell you it is a “seed” of their belief even if the overall premise & position of the theologian is clearly in opposition to hyperpreterism. The hyperpreterists attempt to find “seeds” of hyperpreterism under every little theological rock is merely wishful thinking. No serious theologian in history has ever advocated what hyperpreterists believe…now that in itself doesn’t make hyperpreterism wrong, but it does make their claim to find “seeds” a dishonesty.

Point #3 is an oft repeated tactic of hyperpreterist followers who have picked up this line from hyperpreterist teachers — I say this because most hyperpreterist followers have scant knowledge of Christian history — to the point of you will often see them spelling Arminianism as Armenians .

First, the use of this tactic seems to miss the point as to why councils were called. Church councils were not called to impose a new belief on the Church but rather councils were primarily called only when a new heresy rose up. So, the reason there has never been a need for a specific council addressing eschatology is because there has never been a heresy divergent enough from the traditional teaching on eschatology. The point is, even with variances among the existing eschatological models — ALL of the eschatological models AGREE on EXACTLY the 3 beliefs that hyperpreterism denies. This is significant.

Point #4 is used when all else fails. Hyperpreterists will begin to claim anyone who opposes them must “hate” them & want them to “go to hell” — even if their opponents never use these words. Hyperpreterists will play the victim & persecuted in attempt to gain sympathy. Don’t buy it.

Point #5 is used more by the hyperpreterist “leaders”. They will try to get well known, respected teachers/preachers to say hyperpreterism is not a heresy & then they will cite these people in their defense. I’ve seen hyperpreterists do with with people such as Gary DeMar & James Jordan. Hyperpreterists will also attempt to join legitimate groups such as ETS or a local seminary & use this as “proof” they are valid.

CONCLUSION

The conclusion is, hyperpreterism is just as NON-Christian as is Mormonism & JWs. We should treat hyperpreterism & hyperpreterists the same way we treat Mormonism & JWs. That doesn’t mean we have to “hate” them — as Christians really shouldn’t hate anyone — but we most certainly should not go around acting like hyperpreterists are Christian brothers & sisters. And we should be suspect of everything they “teach” as it is all tinged with their hyperpreterism (hyperpreterism ISN’T just about eschatology — it affects everything as all of our beliefs affect our other beliefs). Remember, Mormonism also claims to follow Jesus, even to the point of promoting itself as “Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints”. Don’t be fooled. Hyperpreterism is a heresy & anyone advocating it in principle or by name is a heretic. Pray for them to be released from this horrible error.

Mac Users: A Chance to Win Accordance

Filed Under (Uncategorized) by dee dee on 23-11-2008

I have written a review on the Mac Bible Study Accordance. Please check it out here.

If you comment at World of Apple on the review by December 5, 2008 you have a chance to win a copy. This program can also be run in Windows, but I did not test that functionality so I cannot promote it in that way. As a Mac program, it is AWESOME.