Gary DeMar fails to warn the sheep… again
Filed Under (dee dee's posts, hyperpreterism) by dee dee on 29-08-2009
Tagged Under : Gary DeMar, John Bray
I just received in a promotional email from American Vision advertising, among other things, this book by John Bray:
Grasp what this book teaches, and you won’t waste any more of your time on the pre-mil, pre-trib fiction put out by the so-called “prophecy experts.” Matthew 24 Fulfilled examines the issues related to popular “end-times” hysteria and counters with a view consistent with all of Scripture.
I have the book. How did I end up getting it? Because Mr. Bray lied in an advertisement for the book. I no longer have the advertisement which IIRC was in a Seventh Day Adventist magazine, but I really don’t care who believes me or not. The advertisement said the the arguments presented therein were fully orthodox. Like the typical slippery hyperpreterist, that is not precisely true.
Here is the addendum to the Second Edition:
I have come to the conclusion that the even which we have term ‘The Second Coming of Christ’ actually took place in the first century during that generation of people who lived in the time of Christ, according to the prophecy and predictions of both Jesus and the writers of the New Testament. All teaching, therefore, concerning the resurrection and judgment connected with the Second Coming of Christ must be studied and understood in light of this context.
Yes, this has been brought to Gary’s attention many times. Here is one such time, but I have personally told him my concern in emails.
Gary has so much that is wise and good on his site. I listen to his podcast. I sincerely pray and wish for his peers that he will listen to counsel him to distance himself from the stench of hyperpreterism. I have tried and failed. Now I just warn others.
No, no Dee Dee, I was told by a friend of DeMar’s that he is just a nice guy and that is why it just “seems” like he is promoting hyperpreterism. I think you have it all wrong…besides hyperpreterists are “brothers” don’t'cha know?
DeMar does believe HPs are brothers. I do call him out publicly now because I have tried for years to reach him through other means. He has too much influence to hold such a dangerous view.
I realize that there are a lot of politics that prevent many from speaking out. That is one reason I am glad I am a nobody. Nobodies aren’t concerned with politics.
(and I am not saying politics in a deroggatory manner, there is a place for it in the sphere of influence, it is just not what I was called to)
I will call out Gary each time I see him do things like this. Gary has asked me not to email him, thus I do not email him first. I am more than willing to enter into private interchange with him again and always have been.
When DeMar fails to make clear statements (such as those who hold to HP are heretics) he hurts my own battle with this issue (a battle that puts me in the mine field of the political twisting of this issue).
I am currently embroiled in an issue that becomes much more difficult to “win” when men like DeMar fail to stand up and say it like it needs to be said. This is very disappointing.
IMO, DeMar is in a fix. He recognizes the logical conclusions of saying that Matthew 25 was fulfilled in A.D. 70. So Hyper-Preterism doesn’t sting his conscience as it would you or I. At the same time, he understands that H.P. is heterodox, and would damage his academic viability were he to convert to it. So he tacitly endorses the system without going ‘all the way.’
I’ve had some brief interaction with Gary. He’s always struck me as a very intelligent man who reads the Bible much like liberals and atheists do. We once had a little ‘duello’ which would be interesting to re-publish, had the interaction not been deleted. If he or his son ever wanted to debate me in person, I would be much flattered. However, these guys only go after the ‘big fish.’ I’m not a shark, I’m just talapia.
Brian
Those are my thoughts Bill as well. I really love the majority of the work DeMar does. When his magazine was out, I was a subscriber. I have bought books from his ministry. I think he has a poor bedside manner in dealing with criticism, but hey, no one is perfect.
Hmm tilapia.
I have a different opinion Brian of DeMar than you do, I don’t think he reads the Bible that way, but I do think he reads it with an HP mindset. I do not believe he is a closet HP though many do. He has openly declared he is not, so I take him at his word, and so call him out as a brother who is leading others greatly astray.
He let all the hyperpreterist posts stand, but when I challenged him on his forum, he deleted my posts. Not only mine but that of many orthodox people. I saved the post that was deleted and it is here somewhere on the blog. It was not obnoxious; there was no reason to delete it except he apparently did not want to deal with it. His forums/article comments are a haven for hypers. Thus it disturbs me that many people are first exposed to preterism through his many radio appearances, do to his site and that is what they encounter, and they are not forewarned or forearmed.
DeMar was asked by Sam Frost POINT BLANK if hyperpreterism is a heresy and he point blank said NO.
Below is an audio of Sam Frost calling into a radio show to ask DeMar if he thinks hyperpreterists are heretics.
Audio: http://www.preteristsite.com/mp3/demarwithfrost.mp3
TEXT:
So, there you have it, in audio form AND transcription. Frost once again asks a question he claims he “doesn’t mean to bring up”, then he spends almost 3 minutes buttering up DeMar. DeMar finally answers, twice saying he doesn’t think “all forms of full preterism” are heretical, but only the “goofy” kind. Frost, as is DOCUMENTED once again throws some of his fellow full preterists under the bus by referring to them as “low-rent” and up there with “Charles Manson and Jim Jones”. — Just who are these people? Can Frost please name them by name for once?
Ultimately, DeMar legitimizes Frost and gives him what he so desperately sought when he called the radio show; validation.
Yes, indeed DeMar as he said himself, “doesn’t deal with the full preterist argument” but rather he continues to dialogue and support hyperpreterist websites, writers, speakers and even has mainly hyperpreterist participants on his own website forums.
P.S. I meant to add, did you notice the subtle change in how Frost presented the issue? At first he asked if people “exploring” full preterism should be rejected then later he changed it to people who have “adopted” the position. Two different questions
Oh, great. I just bought the darn book. But at least I got it on sell. However, would this book lay out the same arguments as an orthodox preterist? And, I believe this is the 5th edition book(?), is there anything in it that reeks of hyperpreterism? I guess, what I’m trying to get at is: even though this book was written by a hyperpreterist is the book in of itself still “okay” to read in terms of its content. Would the contents be consistent with a partial preterist’s at least?
I can’t say for sure. The newer additions have more pages than the one I have. I wouldn’t be surprised if it more heavily pushes HP now but I have the older one. I have used some of it’s material but seriously unless a copy editor took a ruthless pen to it, the writing is amatuerish and cobbled. In fact, if you have ever read Michael Bennett’s posting style, it is like that. Perhaps the new length is do to some professional editing as the cover is new. The old cover looked liked a 14 year old doodled it while bored in math class.
Who else is sick of all preterist books having that same overdone painting on it. I have the print, it really isn’t all that great. My podcast artwork done be equestrianart.com is WAY better and I see Gary had a booklet he was selling with that same art. Was the artist’s permission granted? In my discussions with her I got the impression my request was unique and she would only give permission if my podcast was not a for profit enterprise, so I have my doubts about that other book. Take a look at her art if you love horses as I do. It is amazing. My next major art purchase will be from her.
When I was in Pensacola a few years back, Joe and the gang spoke highly of John Bray. I remember them saying: “He doesn’t know anything about the doctrines of grace, but he’s strong on Preterism!” Someone told me recently that Bray is now deceased. Is this true??
I’ve never read anything by him. But writing style to me isn’t very important. Generally speaking, my criterion is not how well someone writes, but how faithful they are to Biblical truth, and to the “one faith” (Eph. 4: 5) delivered to the churches and preserved in the N.T. canon. Obviously, that puts Bray out of the picture. Literary style ranks in my book as mere ornament. Some of the best theological literature we have was written by “unlearned and ignorant men” (Acts 4: 13).
Brian
He may be deceased, he was a very elderly man.
Those unlearned and ignorant men of Acts wrote the Scriptures, and certainly you would agree that the literary style is beautiful.
Bray’s book (at least the edition I have) is a trainwreck when it comes to presentation.
Dee Dee,
As I heard it, the story runs like this:
Bray passed away sometime within the last year or so. American Vision made a deal with his grandson (who ostensibly owns the rights?) to re-publish some of Bray’s works. So what you see in the AV advertisment is probably the ‘first installment’ of re-released material.
Incidentally, I find it amusing that Bray is called a “Southern Baptist Reverend.” I’m a licenced minister in the SB church, and I can safely say that no pastor would ever let someone like Bray get close to an orthodox pulpit.
Brian
Hi Roderick,
I’m a bit confused. DeMar said that Sam Frost does NOT deny the resurrection. Don’t hyperpreterists deny it though? What’s going on here?
Jack
Hi Jack — Most hyperpreterists don’t deny Jesus’ physical resurrection, they deny the believers physical and future resurrection. The problem being, if that is DeMar’s only “litmus test” as to whether hyperpreterism is heretical or not, then the Nestorians and Arians were less heretical then hyperpreterists.
I read Bray’s book. It was the first preterist book I bought. He lived in Lakeland and we conversed a little by mail back 7-8 years ago. At the time, he enclosed HP literature with a book purchase, so I can’t really remember if the book was promoting HP, or if it was just the newletters he sent with it. Once you bought a book, he continued to send newsletters, but as time passed, they became fewer and fewer until they just stopped. I do remember him saying the slow down was due to health issues and finances.
I just searched for the book, but it’s not here. No telling what I did with it.
Thank you, Roderick. Makes more sense now.
I read books by Gary Demar.I like his books “Last Days Madness”.I hope that he does not take a hyperpreterist position. He is the one that brough me to the Moderate Preterist view.He got me away from the likes of Hal Lindsay,Jack Van Impe,Chuch Smith,John Woolvard,Charles Drier,and etc.I read penty of his articles on Matthew 24-25.
John Bray will be most distressed to find out he’s dead. He will probably put it in his Newsletter that he publishes around eight times a year.
Like Mark Twain, he will likely think the reports of his death to be greatly exaggerated.