Chris Calls In to “Stand to Reason”

Filed Under (Chris D's posts, terminology) by Chris on 19-07-2010

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Some of you may be familiar with Greg Koukl’s “Stand to Reason” apologetics ministry. They have a weekly radio show, archived in podcast form, and I’ve recently begun listening. In a couple of recent episodes, callers in have asked about preterism, and Greg (and the callers in) has distinguished between preterism and hyperpreterism using the abhorrent “partial” and “full” prefixes, against which Dee Dee has rightfully railed (see this blog post, a shorter version of Dee Dee’s article, “Perfuming the Hog“).

Being new to Greg’s show but having developed a respect for him and his aim toward teaching Christians how to think, rather than merely what to think, I decided I’d call in and humbly request that he change his terminology. I agree with Dee Dee that the terminology we employ is important, and likewise wrote about it at my blog in “A War Over Words“. If you would like to listen to my discussion with Greg, check out his podcast and listen to July 18th’s show, “Reflections on UK Vacation.” I was the first caller in the second hour of the show, and you can fast forward to 00:59:43 if you want to skip to my call.

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What Martin Luther & the Reformers Think of the Hypers

Filed Under (cults/cultic, history, hyperpreterism, second coming, terminology) by Roderick_E on 28-11-2008

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Before a discussion or proposition can progress, it is important that we first define our terms.  For the sake of this essay the word HYPER is used to mean anything that goes beyond the original intent & scope  In the theological sense, hyper is used as a prefix to many otherwise legitimate theological perspectives.  There are some groups claiming to be within historic Christianity that clearly have gone beyond the original intent & scope of Jesus,  beyond His hand-picked apostles, & beyond 2000 years of Christian interpretation.   Whether these hyper groups acknowledge they have gone beyond or not, it is still accurate to label them as hyper.

We often hear hypers trying to use Martin Luther & the other Reformers as if they would support some hyperism.  You will see hypers using Luther’s quotes against Papalism & trying to compare it to hyper’s stance to the Church & 2000 years worth of historic Christianity.  Hypers fancy themselves as either the new or a continuance of the Reformers & the Reformation.  But just a casual look beyond the catch phrases will show that neither Luther nor the Reformers would have supported the hypers of our day any more than they supported the hypers of their day.

In the early days of the Reformation, as Luther & other Reformers were making their case against Papalism with Scripture AND historic Christianity, there was a third group we often do not hear about today.  This group was called the radical reformers.  Luther called them the “enthusiasts” or the “fanatics” (reference).  This group of 16th century hypers, like modern hypers advocated throwing off all of historic Christianity & starting over — often claiming they want to rebuild Christianity on the Bible alone (as if it has not been so for 2000 years).  The hypers at first supported Luther & the Reformers but then went BEYOND the original intent & scope of the Reformers & instead held much disdain for Luther & the Reformers, much the same way modern hypers disdain historic Christianity & the so-called institutional Church.

As the hypers of Luther’s day became increasingly disconnected from anything that resembled Christianity, the hypers eventually formed into bands of theological & sociological thugs.  They raided castles, churches & monasteries destroying everything in their path.  They were out to destroy the very foundations of 2000 years of Christianity & replace it with a revisioned form.  The “thugs” of today are doing the same but on an ideological level rather than a geographical.

Luther & the other Reformers didn’t just wink at what these hypers were doing but instead, Luther urged the political authorities to take action against them.  This is evidenced most in a tract Luther wrote called: Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants.

The peasants have taken upon themselves the burden of three terrible sins against God and man; by this they have merited death in body and soul… they have sworn to be true and faithful, submissive and obedient, to their rulers… now deliberately and violently breaking this oath… they are starting a rebellion, and are violently robbing and plundering monasteries and castles which are not theirs… they have doubly deserved death in body and soul as highwaymen and murderers… they cloak this terrible and horrible sin with the gospel… thus they become the worst blasphemers of God and slanderers of his holy name” (Against the Rioting PeasantsMartin Luther, 1525)

A truer picture of Luther & the Reformers will see that they were fighting on one hand against the Papists with their Creed without Scripture & on the other hand against the Enthusiasts/Hypers with their Scripture without Creed.   And here we must once again define our terms — Creed is merely the English form of the Latin word “credo” which literally means “belief” or “I believe”.  The issue with the Papists is that they often would put forward beliefs without Scripture to back it up whereas the Enthusiasts/Hypers would put forth Scriptures disconnected from the beliefs of 2000 years of Christianity (or 1500+ years at the time of the Reformation).  Both approaches were as incorrect yesterday as they are today & tomorrow.

Perhaps a quote that summarizes Luther’s perspective on approaching Scripture is this one:

You should meditate, that is, not in the heart alone, but also externally. You should work on it and ply the oral speech and the lettered words in the book, read them and reread them again and again, noting carefully and reflecting upon what the Holy Spirit means by these words. And take care that you do not tire of it or think it enough if you have read, heard, said it once or twice, and now profoundly understand it all; for in that manner a person will never become much of a theologian. (Sammtliche SchriftenMartin Luther)

That quote might be compared to another by Luther wherein he shows that it is possible for someone to approach the Bible “rationally”, “logically”, & even with “consistency” & STILL come out with error:

The first concern of a theologian should be to be well acquainted with the text of Scripture, a bonus textualis, as they call it.  He should adhere to this primary principle: in sacred matters there is no arguing or philosophizing; for if one were to operate with the rational and probable arguments in this area, it would be possible for me to twist all the articles of faith as easily as Arius [an infamous anti-Trinitarian], the Sacramentarians, and the Anabaptists did.  But in theology we must only hear and believe and be convinced in our heart that God is truthful, however absurd that which God says in His Word may appear to be to reason. (Auslegung des 45Martin Luther)

CONCLUSION

This brings us to the conclusion of this essay.  The hypers, be they of Luther’s time or present or even future will claim as did Arius that they are just asking “logical” questions but then they will move from there to open advocacy of error to eventually displaying aggressive repudiation of the historic Christianity.  They will claim (as they always have) that there has been some sort of conspiracy since the very founding of Christianity & not until they [the hypers] have come & “corrected” the confusion has anything been true.  And with this giant leap of arrogance against all of Christianity, we are supposed to simply yield.  No sirs, ma’ams we shall not yield to their errors no matter how “logical” & with “rational & probable” philosophizing arguments they may use.  Their hyper heresy is heresy not simply because we don’t like it, nor because the majority is against it, but because all of Christianity has been against it throughout all time & because their hyper heresies are NOT “carefully reflecting upon what the Holy Spirit means” & because their hyper heresies “twist all the articles of faith” & try to replace them with something new & foreign to historic Christianity.

So, next time you see a hyper of any sort trying to use Luther & the Reformers to bolster their view, be they such as the restorationists or the children of the restorationist such as the hyperpreterists, or the cultists such as Mormons & JWs — remind them what Luther & the Reformers REALLY thought about the hypers.

Semi-Preterism

Filed Under (hyperpreterism, preterism) by dee dee on 28-12-2005

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I had an interesting message from a friend who is of the futurist camp coming to an understanding of the importance of the AD70 event, and while still embracing primarily a futuristic view point also holds a semi-preteristic view. I am finding that the old vanguard of futurism typified by LaHaye and McArthur is falling and falling past, and new nuances will arise. I find this tremendously encouraging and exciting.

However, it also brings somewhat niave (in that their exposure) has been limited potential victims to the perversity that is hyperpreterism which is only being opposed in dribs and drabs with this site being the only site singularly dedicated to its exposure and dozens of heretical sites. To me this is easily explained by the nature of the heresy which makes its adherents pathologically single-minded in their promotion. It is THE issue. Most opponents of hyperpreterism have thriving ministries in other areas and have limited time to dedicate to this small and obsessive group. However, I think this is a huge mistake. My heart echoes the sentiments of sister Sharon Beverly:

“How many shipwrecks does it take to get the full attention of the collective body?”

How many indeed. The time is critical friends. Sites such as this and many others are in sore need, and I will be devoting as much time as I can to this project.

I quote sister Sharon once again from here:

Saturday morning, May 14, 2005

I think alot of folks running around out there who have been deeply wounded by Pantelism, or who are seriously struggling with it, are afraid to speak out against it, which is quite understandable. Whether you’re a learned, intellectual Theologian, or the common fisherman who loves the Lord, all saints who have stood up to this poison have experienced the dogmatic, arrogant, and rabid fervor that drives it at the highest echelons. It can appear outwardly intimidating, but please, do not let this keep you from speaking out. Whether we stand or fall, we stand or fall to Him, and no one else.

You can expect to be slandered. [Editorial note by DDW: you may even expect to be the subject of behaviour that many people would consider seriously threatening harassment and borderline cyberstalking by a certain contingent that have their base of support in one particular hyperpreterist site]You can expect to have a slew of fancy-shmancy terminology thrown at you, along with the charge that because you don’t write or speak according to their intellectual standards, you are a sub-standard idiot not worthy of any credibility. Do not worry. The Lord is simple, and a Man of few words. In the midst of His enemies, He often never spoke at all, even when falsely accused.

The fool is known by his many words, and condemneth his own self with his constantly wagging tongue. Do not contend with the fool. Speak the truth with an honest heart, and leave the results in His hands. Spiritual quickening is the Lord’s work-not ours. Those who have ears to hear and eyes to see, will hear and see. Those who do not-will not-and no amount of intellectual arguing will change this. The wise man who allows himself to be drawn back into the fool’s ring again and again, is engaging his own pride.

Pr 29:9 ¶ If a wise man contendeth with a foolish man, whether he rage or laugh, there is no rest. .

Do not allow him to intimidate you, dear one in Christ. If your heart is pricked with compassion for those who are falling into this pit-do not hold your peace. If your heart burns with the Lord’s wise counsel-proclaim it loud and clear. Be encouraged, and be of good cheer, for He has overcome the world.

Jesus made himself of no reputation. Can we do anything less? Our reputation died with Him when we were born-again with Him. Is it easy to bite your tongue when you know you’re being falsely accused and misrepresented? No, it’s not, but the more we do bite our tongues, and leave it in His hands, the easier it becomes, and the more peace settles into our hearts. He is, afterall, our one, true Advocate. I pray we can leave it there in His capable hands.

The Lord is faithful to them that trust Him, and today He has spoken two things to me. The first word is to revisit Ecclesiastes. All that we need to understand all poisonous doctrines and stand against them can be found in that book.

The second word is the memory of my past encounter with two very young (18-21 years old I would guess) Mormon “Elders” who came to my front door last year. These two young men were handsome, smartly dressed, articulate, kind, and by all accounts, outwardly righteous. Our exchange ended with me telling them that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, and that they needed to repent and believe the gospel. I said good day, and I closed the door, while these previously polite and outwardly friendly young men ranted and raved at me through my closed door. Pride is the greatest deceiver of mankind, and our worst enemy. May the Lord clothe those who love Him in His own cloak of humility.